. >> rose: well welcome to the program, tonight mandy patinkin he brings to the a lifetime of achievement and insight. >> you don't get to pick and choots your mistakes or your successes. you pick and choose everything. >> rose: it is all shapes you. >> it all shapes you. but when i think back on the most-- you know, you know how we are as human being, all these wonderful things happen every second of our life and we just go on. we ignore the fact that we breathe. >> yes w and all these things are going on. and then one little tiny thread happens you can hardly see it, one negative thing and you go tumbling down. >> rose: mandy patinkin for the hour next.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: mandy patinkin is here. he is an emmy and tony award-winning actor. he is one extraordinary singer. he stars in the showtime series homeland as you know. as you also know his character sal, a cia director and the show some say moral center. here is a look at his performance.

saul. saul!

>> rose: his iconic role as a spanish wordsman in rob reiner's film the princess bride has gained cult status. >> my name is monday toy avment you killed my father. prepare to die. >> he also a broadway veteran of more than 30 years and interpreter of stephen sondheim. i'm enormously pleased to have mandy patinkin back at this table. welcome. >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: you're just back from australia. >> yes. >> rose: doing what? >> i was doing a series of concerts there with my dear friend nathan gunn, the wonderful, glorious-- glorious opera singer who just started rehearsals today at the met for magic flute. and we did three concerts in australia, sydney, business done-- brisbon, melbourne and automaticland and did one there. it was fascinating. i thought i was exhausted like i'd never been exhausted before. between traveling where i had to go mo morocco to film some stuff and then to l.a. for some family. and i said to my wife, i

said oh my god, honey, will i get through the first show. i just don't know. and it was one of those experience, i thought i was plug mood a nuclear reactor being with nathan out there. the sound of his voice was like being in one of those waterfalls that just bash on to your head and shoulders, just drench you in joy and electricity. and then being with him is fun. and i love it more than anything, just going out there. >> rose: sing something the first love. >> it is my first love, absolutely. if you told me, i could only do one thing thing and i had to choose i would choose the live concert venue with the audience, there is nothing like it. the reservoir of material endless. i never leave for the theatre without much whatting the news of that moment, whatever i can grab because it informs how we all listen what is happening out there. >> songs that become classics that you want to hear over an over again. they're usually written with such simplicity that that can reflect every home of our lives whether it be joyous or terrifying.

you take a song like over the rainbow it begins with when all the world is the hopeless jumble and the raindrops tumble all around, heaven opens a magic lane, when all the clouds darken up the sky where there is a rainbow to be found, leading from your window pain. just a step beyond the sun, i forget,-- i forgot the last part of it. i wasn't singing it when i say it. >> just as you were saying it, how do you remember. >> well, i-- . >> rose: so much. >> every day i work out. and i either take a long walk for an hour and a half or i go to the gymed. and i get on an elliptical and a run a qon zferment and i run it fast so i always stand next to someone without has got ear phones on so they don't hear me. and i run about an hour and 45 minutes worth of material. so that i, because i got about 10, 13 hours of letter income my head that i don't want to lose. so i just keep rolling over it and over it. >> so you keep rolling it over the time. >> i also think it is the best thing i got eye shot toward, you know, trying to ward off alzheimer or anything. because they say learning

something every day is new, and also interesting, when i've been away from learning for a while, i find very difficult. and then if i start homeland again and all of a sudden the dialogue starts coming. it will be a little rough in the beginning. then all of a sudden pie brain starts kicking in and i notice i'm learning quicker and quicker and quicker. i'm convinced it is similar to other muscles in our body. the brain is like, you build new cells. >> we learn more about that every day and you're absolutely right. >> i'm positive about it i've vernsed it, i'm certain. >> there is also something you do which i found wonderful. and just help me understand because i have forgotten about it. you recite the names of people in your mind that you loved who are dead. >> yes so that you -- >> well, my favorite line of anything i've ever heard was written by oscar hammerstein for the musical car o sell. i don't know where he got it but you have also heard it in other forms. and the line is as long as there is one person on earth who remembers you, it isn't

over. so part of my meditation that i have put together before, that i do when a meditate, before i go in front of a camera, before every concert is one of the parts of this 10, 15 minute meditation is i say outloud every person's name that i knew who's passed on. and it's my way of keeping them not only alive, but i, you know, what i love is part of what i love about your studio is what i love about being on stage. i'm looking at black vel our drapes all around mement so when i look into the darkness, i can see everything. >> rose: yeah. >> there's nothing that can't be there. including all of those souls and forces. so it is very powerful to me. and i believe, people have asked me dow believe in god, are you religious, this or that. >> i believe in einstein and the theory of relativity and that energy never dies. >> rose: have you been on stage doing all the things that are you so renowned for among your friends, mandy the conversationalist, mandy who has some take on the way the world works and the way

human beings work. have you ever taken that to the stage and done a kind of one man show? >> this is what i do. when i do my concerts this is what i just did with nathan gunn. >> so you talk about life as well as singing. >> i do different concerts. when i do my solo concerts or my show with nathan it's less structured. it's less formalize. when i do my show with patti lapointe it's more skripted. there is one section more free form. the more free form pieces which is the basic concert that at this do which is called dress casual which is just different all the time, it's smorgasbord of material, but i also say what hits me. recently i was in australia and it was the day before thanksgiving. and nathan said something about thanksgiving. and it just hit me. and i want thanksgiving, yeah, i mean it's fascinating to me. here we are in a country that actually said that they were sorry to the native people. and why can't they say that in our country. how come we can't say we're sorry. and how come, you know, we should give them the meal for thanksgiving, not feed ourselves.

we should feed the native americans. >> rose: and when some president or another decides that we should apologize for something terrible that happened, you hear people don't apologize for america, that becomes the accusation in the political arena. you're apologizing for something. as if. >> look that's a crime. >> i actually, there's a part of it i find understandable. i don't think there's great value in saying you're sorry over and over again. i do think there is great value in saying it at least once and to recognize it. but at the end of the day, change your behaviour is really what i think is the ball game. change your behaviour. because words are cheap. actions are everything. my brother-in-law is a zen buddhist monk at the monday as terri in upstate new york. and he said a phrase to me once that i just love. which is our actions are the ground we walk on.

>> rose: now here about this, my friend david brooks. at the time everybody was saying you've got to find yourself, david brooks said no, that's not right. what you have to do is find something larger than self so you can lose yourself. lose yourself in religion, lose yourself in the pursuit of an obsession. to pursue to do something do something that's not about who i am. >> yes, i think the rescue what's that thing you throw out on a boat that's sir you can lar that says, the lifesaving, the when you throw that out, that rescues you. when it's not but. get your face and your head and your mind out of your own navel and pay attention to someone else. pay attention to your wife to your children to your coworker. when i'm working i work so

hard to prepare for one reason, so that when i'm out there in front of the audience or in front of the camera with the other actor, that i can forget befering. milos foreman said to me one day when we were doing rag times years ago, he said mandy could coors, he said told me to hold the hat this way and i didn't and the tape was rolling and i stopped. he said what is the problem, what is the problem? i said well, you told me to do this and he told me to do this, he said mandy, everybody is going to tell you everything. listen them and then forget about it. forget about it. >> and i think, i forgot what the question was. >> losing yourself in something that is larger than you. otherwise you lose yourself in something bigger and greater than you. it could be family, your child, a thousand different things rather than just me, me, me, me, me. >> yep. and the key, i think, is what i was trying to say

earlier is so you do all that homework. so you can forget about it. >> so now i can be there with the other actor. i can be there with the audience and be in the moment so i can see not the words a learned but what's in your heartbeat, what's the temperature of the feeling of the nature of your tone, so when these people go to places where they're having wars and finally a general has the good sense to sit and have a cutch of tea. and he realizes it changes the character and temperature of the whole room. and once you break bread and have a cup of tea with a human being, everything's different. and we're no longer enemies. we're having tea. >> rose: we're all the same as we are, we believe, we live, we die, we care about kids. >> so set the equation. it is what is in between. then remind me later about what's between the white and black notes. >> yeah. un preparing for saul that you went down and talked to some cia people and the thing that unlocked something for you was when either brennan

or someone else, you're looking where do i hang saul, i think. that was your question. and you are talking to these guys. and when he talked about family. >> yes. >> you got it. >> yes. >> rose: what did you get? >> well, brennan just echoed what i had found earlier. i had read all the books. i asked alex and howard when i was preparing, what i can read. hi this window of opportunity to prepare. so i read all these books. many of them by talking heads of the cia. most disgruntled about the cia and going on and on. and they really can't tell you anything that's going on or happened anyway. you know, it's all corb never terms of the c, a for what they put out there anyway. and so i'm looking for that hook to hang my heart on, you know, for what's that heartbeat of that human being that i'm going play. and i went down. i found, they called spooks, you know, the guys who are the real guys. so i go down to langley and i find this guy that they hook me up with who is supposely one of the heads of the middle east and gi

down there we're talking and everything. he's telling me he's this and that and i'm not believing a word. and i say don't schmooze a schmoozer. come on, man, i'm in the same game, it's just we're different ends. i'm paid to lie, you're paid to lie, you know, it's just how good we do it. we have to make believe we believe it. so i said come on. you know, and then at one point he says and i'm to the getting what i need. and he mentioned something about his kids. and his daughters. i said daughters, where are your kids. how old are they, one is a graduate, someone almost graduating where. are they, they are here. right in line. really, i can come over. and the kids come over. and the girls sit down and the nickel dropped. and at that moment i realized this was all about family. the girls were talking about what it was like growing up in these embassies, usually, around the world. being with other people and fathers and parents who were involved with the cia. just what life was like. and at that moment i actually learned it from doing ison, the enemy of the people, with gerald freedman who was my mentor and my

teacher. and all these complicated, rich ideas that the great classics all hold. so complicated you could be overwhelmed in this sea of ideas. and then jerry one day said about these two brothers on this journey in this place, he said it's a play about family. it's really a play about family. you know, as we go through this ride in our lives, i think we find a few songs that are the ones we like to sing. and triggers that they're the ones in our pocket. they're the ones who are always looking for, whoever we are. they are not the same. they are who we are t is your finger weren't. and the family one is the game for me, that i loved it so. and all the dimensions of it when it works, when it doesn't, when we break t when we nurture it, when we ignore it, when we wish for it. when we miss it. >> so homeland is about family, it's about the american family? >> it's about the family of saul and keri, about the family of brody and his family. it's about the family of you,

saul and his wife,. >> the cia. >> the humanity in the pop las of america and the humanity of the world at large. the world community as a family. and how we listened to each other to me that's the nervous system of the whole piece. whether or not we are listening to each other. >> but you have as we talk and look at the sort of arc of your own professional life. >> yes. >> an personal life. >> yes. >> i mean do you sometimes say dammit, i didn't listen. and you know you have made a mistake? >> yes, sir. those are the most painful moments of my life. and i don't know who i would be without those moments as well. so -- >> you mean they're shaping influences. >> yes. you don't get to pick and choose your mistakes or your successes. you pick and choose everything. that is what shapes you. >> it all shapes you. but when i think back on the

most-- you know how we are as human beings, all these wonderful things happen every second of our life. and we just go on. we ignore them. we ignore the fact that we breathe. and all these things are going on. and then one little tiny thread happens. you can hardly see t just some little negative thing and sgu tumbling down. >> i know. >> it takes a mountain to build you back up but a thread to knock you down. and so but yeah, so boy, those mistakes, i refer to them as mistakes, troubled. those errors, those moments when i didn't listen myself. i paid for that. >> of all those, what stands highest? >> not letting my father know that he was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. and listening to my elders, his two sisters, the doctor, and family who said for various reasons, daddy would

freak out if he knew this in 1972 before cancer became more discussable. and so we have to lie to him. and tell daddy that he has hepatitis instead of pancreatic cancer. and that 18-year-old mandy has been recovering from that lie all the rest of his life. by needing too much truth . >> rose: people always want to know, don't they? do you think he wanted to know? >> yes, i think-- i think so, you know. i'm a j buddhist. they call me a jew bu. and i love them both. i love what they both have. >> rose: what does buddhism bring. >> i think brings all the best parts of all religions. i think it is the melting pot, for me, of all religions. it's also a practice. i love the word practice, how do you get to carnegie hall, you practice. how do you get to the

carnegie hall of your soul, of your life, to the concert hall where you make the best music inside your house, you practice. how do you practice, you change your behaviour. every day, it's very difficult. and you constantly are falling down and you have to constantly try to change it again. and what i love about the practice is you sit and you meditate and you try to simply do nothing but listen the sound of your breath and not have a thought. and the teacher up at the the monas terri, he said of all the creatures in the universe, the only one from the house fly to the rhinoceros they all rest in a waking state except man. mankind is the only one that doesn't rest while he's awake. and we were talking earlier, taking that little five minute nap. >> the power of the nap. >> i mean just take, you can literally feel the fat agency leaving you if you just let it go. >> yeah. >> you are at the gym, you know -- >> when i go to bet, i hit the pillow and i'm sleeping

in a minute. >> and our brains are cellular material that are no different than your muscles. so if you take a weight and lift it "x" amount of times you have no trouble, on the 20th time you can hardly do t by the 30th you can't do it you future down, you wait a minute, you can do another 20. >> exactly right. >> so let me talk about this homeland too. bring some of these other things. did you appreciate what it was when you first saw it? and what was it for you? >> saul. >> well, i got the phone call on my birthday. >> that's good. >> said you're going to get an offer tomorrow morning, read this i read it and i knew the pedigree of the writers. i knew it was written extraordinarily well. and i knew claire was involved. and i knew her gifts. >> right. >> i gave it to my wife who is the smartest person i know. and one other friend. i said tell me if i'm wrong but i think this has the potential to unravel as a slow onion peel and never

stop because to me it was a mirror as shakespeare says to ourselves, our country and our world at large. both on the family nucleus and every metaphor that springs springs from. and they agreed with me. and then i went to work to do the pilot. you never know, it's show business. you make this pilot. good-bye, got go. it gets picked up. and we arrive to do the first episodes of the season. nobody's seen it. each episode is coming in. and they're extraordinary. and no one talks about it. i mean make up trailer, everyone, none of them on the crew, everyone is reading, no one is talking about it. >> rose: because they don't want to sglintion it or because -- >> i think because you don't want to sglintion it. but also it was so wonderful that my biggest concern was it's too good. when things are this good,

sometimes they want a little something dumber. i mean tracei lutes who is now on our show said this is really television for grown-ups. he said this is really smart television. one of the most gifted people we have on the planet. and so the joy was, you didn't want to break it we would have wonderful dinners together as a company. we just had a joyous time. but i have been around awhile. i knew this doesn't come every day. and my soul was telling me i want every secretary of this. i don't care whether we're here 15, 16, 17 hours. i don't want the day to end. because you don't get days like this you don't get material like this you don't get other actors in a company like this every day. you don't get writers in the writers room like this and you don't get a crew like we have every day. everything doesn't always come together like that and it's going come to an end because it all ends. and i don't want it to happen too soon. and then the day comes whener's about five or six

shows in the can, and the first show comes out. and i use the analogy that it's like meeting the love of your life, you know how you feel about that love. but you bring them home to the family. and then you don't know whether the family is going to respond. and the family feels the same way you do. and when the culture, when the world pop las embraced the piece the way we were privately in that you know, don't break it, it was unbelievably moving and humbling. and gratitude is beyond. there is no word to express how thrilled is i am, was and continue tobacco a part of this. >> and did you in preparation go watch the israeli series? >> no. i certainly heard about it. i had heard that there were differences, changes. but in the second year we filmed part of the show. we were there for about a month in israel. they showed us a compilation because it was the premier of the first show of their second season, of-- that gideon raft created.

so we saw this compilation of the first year and then the first show of the second year. it was very-- it wasn't that similar to ours. the basic premise was the same, it was much more psychologically orient wod the ticking bomb 24 aspect. of the edge of your seat it was a much more psychologically involved there was a scene that gideon wrote in filmed in that first episode of their second season, it was one of the most beautiful things i had ever seen on film any where following a little boy in this building, who's witnessing something happened to his father. and the time they take. and the time they take with homeland. even my wife and ri catching up on a episode because i like to see what the editor-- things change. she krt written turned to me and said the time they're taking. claire had sat down with dam onin the room, you know, and they hadn't been together for a while. it's been over a year, so i'm not giving anything away. before anything was said alex and our glorious editors

wait. they let life happen. they know it's not just about the words. they know it's just about silence, and breathing and time. time you know you were saying earlier, i had a thought and i didn't want to let it go. i just lost the dearest person in my life, my cousin marvin. i'm on this planet because of marvin. i breathe because of marvin. i got married because of marvin. and darryl, his wonderful wife, my cousin. and i had children because of marvin. >> rose: who is marvin. >> marvin was my cousin. he was a lawyer who changed the disability laws in california, who never raised his voice except one time, we pull mood a parking lot for chinese restaurant and a little old lady pulled in to a disabled space. and she didn't have a disabled plate or a sticker. and she shouldn't have been there i thought the sky was going to fall. i never saw marvin lose it and i loved him for it. but he was also the most beautiful soul i ever knew. and darryl has had alzheimer

for a number of years so we've watched that happen. and then all of a sudden in january of last year he got four stage lung cancer and we got him a second opinion and he got chemotherapy and he turned around and we thought the miracle was happening and he would be here forever. playing golf and coming back to life. and then boom, i literal learrived in morocco to film a scene and as i arrived they called me and said it's happening. and so i film and get on an airplane, fly 25 hours, we land in l.a. and i got there my wife calls and said he left. he left an hour before you touched down. and i come over to the house. and the family is there. and this is my family, my children were there. his children were there. and this is my family. and he had a smile on his face. lying in the bed, it's before they had taken him away. but catherine said but he's not there i said i know, he's everywhere. but you asked me something earlier about death and you were talking about your mom. i'm not a fan of death. you know n buddhism they say,

embrace suffering, you know, be aware of it, learn to let go. to hell twp. i can't stand it. i don't think there's anything good about death. >> so you -- >> i hate it. i hate it. i think it's the true flaw in the whole system. >> so your's dylan thomas, rage, rage, rage. >> what's good about it. why shouldn't you get to be here forever. why shouldn't every one of our loved ones be here forever. i don't want people suffering, god knows. i want everybody to have fun. have fun, that's-- when my buddy mark left this planet, he waited and stay add live to hold catherine and my hand and looked at us before that morphine kicked in and he said have fun. >> that's what he said, have fun. >> and try t it's not so easy, you know, you get just so many sunrises and sunsets. >> exactly right. >> and you waste one, you don't get it back. you can't go, it's not like credit card where you get money back. it's gone. >> now what we spoke burlier though, because it's complicated, it's not so simple that i hate death, i love death, suffering, et cetera.

i also believe because i said i believe in einstein that energy never dies. so that my belief in god and the way it works for me, how i connect and connect is the word that i love in life. but how i connect is i believe i can breathe in abraham and moses and jesus and buddha and marvin, and my father. that that energy isn't what you and i are familiar with familiar with at home. but this energy that every cell is made up of is morphed into some other form so the possibility of breathing it in, which is why i love meditating is because are you just breathing. and if you say these people's names and if you are lonely or scared or in the dark there is a possibility they may be with you. >> rose: now take that what you and i believe and you articulate a thousand times better than i do. and put it in saul. here is a man who lives in a world where it's mirrors and everything is what it is not. and part of it is a lie. and nobody knows exactly what's true. >> yes. >> and how do you see this extraordinary ideas you have

about life and this character. >> yes. >> rose: that you must like. >> i love him. >> i love him because he's filled with hope and optimism. and he will do anything to meet his wishes and desires for humanity. >> even take life. >> yes, sir, he will, on both sides. >> he had will give life and take life. >> yes, he will. and he has on his desk the world from the torah that say, which i love from the torah, if you take one life it's as though you destroyed the entire world. and if you save one life it's as though you saved the entire world. but he's a realist and practical and understands that -- >> but is he the ends justify the means? >> is he the ends justify the means. he hopes to be that person. that's why he is devoted to cary mathison, his figure rattive child. and the reason that relationship is so powerful is that when he found her by accident or however he found her, let's say at yale, recruiting. and he met her and his sensibilities were this is a

gifted human being. whether she has a sixth sense or not, she has a passion and a compassion and a sensitivity toward humanity. and her other gifts and senses are so acute that what he fails to do before the end of his lifetime like let's say create peace in the middle east, for one thing. let's say change the world for the better in every possible way you can imagine. she is the best shot he's ever found on this planet to carry on his dream. which we hope for all our children to do. >> okay so, then it maybe something that you've got it really be machiavellian to understand. but he sits and gives her up in front of congressional testimony. >> that's a planned game. >> you've been very, very brave. >> you shouldn't have left me in there.

>> it's almost over. >> no, it's too hard. i can't keep going. >> yes, you can. yes, you can. >> see that's what is interesting about the kind of thing you can do with something like homeland it can be, where does the game end and where is reality. how do you understand what is perceived to be, as a means to an end and not reality itself. >> we lost patients. these writers created this brilliant scheme. and hi heard, i don't read everything on the internet. but i heard people were impatient, and all of a sudden by the fourth episode thereof season they find out this brilliant scheme that alex and the writers created. well, you have to be a little patient in this world. you know, it's like reading a novel watching homeland. you have to go through learning who these

characters are, learning certain situations then all of a sudden something happens and you go through some more, then something else. just like our life for god's sake. you can't handle it if it is always at that pace, you will burn out that phrase burn out, it's real. i remember oh, god, you know-- . >> rose: what. >> i remember once when i was in college everybody was dropping acid. and i thought well i'm going to be an actor, i better experience this. so you could say did you kill somebody, you're going to kill somebody if you are's in hamlet. but i did drop acid wuchblts i was a little jewish prince so i made sure someone tasted at sid first. we go up and have this big meal and drop there acid and my heart is going so fast, i think i finally understood the word burn out because it just made me case late. and then the next morning i'm on a plane next to art linkletter whose daughter had a tragic end from acid. and i never touched another drug as long as i was lismt i took one tab that was it. but i think did enough damage for my whole life. but it's just been-- it's

just wild. >> rose: let me come back to saul. claire has been here. and so has damian lewis has been here, both talking about the character. i want to make sure we can can understand who saul is from you. and where, because you don't want to know what two episodes happen to saul. you want to experience it as you act it. >> yes. mandy doesn't know what is going to happen five seconds from now. i don't know the next question you are going to ask me so, fine, soed goo, that's the fun of life. so why should saul know it you say to me you have to know the lines. of course sloirx have the seven days or so so i can learn it i thought what the writers wrote what alex wrote not that long ago in the 8th or 9th episode is a scene hi with claire in the hospital. i will not quote it exactly but i was exposing its information about-- the plan what is going to go on in iran. and i was clarifying this

whole plot to her. and there was this beautiful speech when you know, she said how do you know is going to be able to happen. and he said well something will happen. but the possibility of when two countries haven't -- >> haven't communicated for over 30 years except through terrorist actions and threats. and sit down and talk. >> the possibility of something changing that dynamic so that they can sit down and talk just like what's happened in this world. whether you want to rail against it or not. whether you want to say it's the worst things that's ever happened in history, i think it's one of the most hopeful things that happened in history. we don't know what history is going to tell us about. but how you can ever eradicate the possibility of two hurt nations or souls coming together to heal the hurt. and all the lies that might

be saved by that action. of just two people getting to a table to sit and talk with each other. >> rose: where are we in terms of the dynamic of how saul sees the moment. >> saul understands humanity. and nations are made of humanity. and he understands that humanity operates as an anxiety riden entity. that most actions by human nature are driven by anxiety. and both sides-- . >> rose: anxiety is also fear. >> fear, anxiety, betrayal. desperation, hurt. my wife has this expression which is a motto in our family. hurt people, hurt people. hurt people, hurt people. and both sides are hurt for whatever reason. to think that you can come to the table, whether you're the israelis or the

palestinians, the iranians or the americans. the native americans or the americans, and think or your own husband and wife or your children, a father and son or a mother and daughter. and to think that only you are right and the other is wrong? that you hold no responsibility for the history of your relationship is madness. and what has gone on in this world in these troubled areas, whether they be at our dinner table or in our fellow nations, when they're troubled, usually that trouble is not sustainable. and the only way to create a sustainable system is to sit and face our fears, walk directly into the fire, speak with who you are terrified with, et cetera. >> but, your friend netanyahu who has been at this table sitting in the chair are you sitting in a number of times and will again very soon, he would

say i have responsibility. i have, i carry on my shoulders my father, my brother, who was shot. i can't trust. it's hard until i'm sure. and when i try to trust before, when we left gaza, see what happened? they started -- >> i love israel. i want israel to be there forever. i care about israel. and i care about the palestinian people. i care about both people equally. and i care about netanyahu. and i respect his fears and his concerns and his lead areship. >> rose: because if i'm wrong. >> that's right. >> rose: if i'm wrong it's not just me. >> that's right. and i believe like brennan says to me or netanyahu or obama, you know, if-- you can't be naive. there are people who are mad,

insane, hurt or angry, or greedy or whatever level you want to put on it, that will not go according to your plan. so you better have defences and you better be ready. i agree with that. but you must be as energetic and active about the peace process at the same time until you haven't a breath left in your body. why do you think saul has such compassion and tolerance for the bipolar issues. because he understands them. because he spernlsed them himself. >> depression. >> absolutely he did. he went through these things. saul. >> rose: do he with know that in the character yet. >> no, you don't know it but it's undeniable. whether it was his own life, personal, whether the writers ever divulge it. but i create my own scenario. i write my own script under your script. >> rose: you have a back story. >> my story is either it was his father that had these difficulties and he watchedded father son relationship in his own family or himself or a

combination of the two. but when another human being comes to the table, that is gifted but troubled, he's compassionate, he's very sensitive. and he's-- and will die for them. and wished others maybe had died for his father or had been kinder to him. >> and yet he had not seen both the inspiration and infewive quality of cary. >> yes, as well as something that was not missing. >> yes. >> something was damaged. >> yes. >> she would have less appeal to him. >> yes. >> because he had been there and he had suffered. >> yes there is a musical group that i've been working with, and on. it's a palestinian violinist, israeli-palestinian violinist, a syrian drummer. an israeli cellist, a baptist piano player, an a chicago jew. and-- we call it bridges. and we're-- you know, we haven't launched it yet. we've done some things

privately it will come out in time but the most beautiful thing which i heard which carreer mathis has this in her nature. is at one point in a rehearsal, the palestinian violin whois play as rabic violin, i didn't know quite what that was, he said to the cellist, are you an arabic tuning? and i looked and i waited to the performance to say what was that. and he sthod the places. and he said it's the sound between the black and white keys. >> so you can do that on a string instrument, so carry mathis hears the sound between the black and white key of life. she knows that potential but she's also incredibly brilliant at following through on her choice to its greater good of here view on human im and it might be the wrong voice. >> she believes in her sever. >> people would say how you

cannot know whether you are its bad guy or the good guy at the end of the game. how do you not know that, how do you not have the writers tell you that. as an actor i say to them, you know, our actions are the ground we walk on. an actor chooses how to act. what his actions are and i say i believe my actions are going to make the world a better place. it is you its listener who makes your choice whether you want to go. >> and dot creators of homeland want us to assume that just as saul has turned this iranian this iranian send him back hoping he will achieve power, how do we know that somehow there's another plot twist and which iranian may have turned saul and somehow will achieve his own ends through his manipulation of saul. in the way that we were lead

to believe that brody had been turned. >> that's right. ef retime you think you know what direction it's going it changes. you don't know. you the viewer don't know and i ain't going to tell you. >> i don't know and -- >> you don't know. >> i do not know. >> i have my own scenario as i say when i say words, in our glorious riding team, i write my own scenario underneath it i have my own story going underneath y? because i need to connect. >> well, do you think directors have say we want mandy because will tell white house saul s yes, we have text, yes, we have plot but we want an acker who will tell us who he is by the way he sees it, and that is what acting ought to be about. >> i hope so.

>> is that some version of hubris. >> yes, i make up my own words and you should play scrabble with my son if you think i'm a problem i -- know. >> i'm not hub ritic, what i hope is that if they see, you know f they see a man who listens in the deeper way, that somehow that will become a fab rit. it was an improvisation that i said the mourners cottage that you showed at the beginning. i improvised that. >> you did? >> i thought that you had gone off and studied. >> no, in the first season. the man who cut his wrists was killed. and i was sitting against the wall, the camera was on me, i see this person who is supposed to be my enemy on the ground. the camera was quiet and i started saying a mourners kaddish isn't about jadaism t is about your

reaffirmation in being alive, and your belief in life. and so i will tell you something else, sometimes i put them in e-mails to the writers. sometimes i don't. sometimes i try to lace them not performance. but there is something else that i have mentioned that i am hoping will somehow osmosize itself not fabric of the piece whether through espionage. >> you mean the reality of america. >> well this is a fictionalized version of america, let's be very clear. >> i want to make sure whether are you talking about washington or homeland. >> i'm talking about my hope, what drives saul and mandy patinkin is hope and optimism. why i love this part is i feel that is who saul is and i'm able to infuse unlimited hope and optimistic just as i try to infuse it in myself. and we need each other that is why this part is sustainable for me. >> rose: because of hope and optimism. >> because of hope and optimism, and i need it, an endless unlimited amount of it one thing i suggested to the writers, i sent it to an e-mail to several of the writers, whether itself will find itself in the future of

the piece because of whatever direction it goes, i want not only whatever is going on in iran but i think you have to as you well know, if you go visit brennan's office there are three major books on the table, on the round table and they are all filled with things going on, not just in 1 place in the world, all over the world. and what i'm hoping for is that somehow saul will become involved in the economic world of society. and in that economic world will shower the palestinian people, that the israelies will shower them and its american funding will shower them with education and health-care systems and road systems. and everything else, bombard them with kindness, goodness, health and hope. i don't know how you end up hating someone who does that. if i can get saul to manipulate the fictionalized version of the middle east, the israeli and palestinian people to somehow, you know, both the united states and all israel to shores with gaza and west bank with aid, education and kindness, i

would find it interested to see who will get angry about that in the other side n the fictional world a if it could go not real world, look, man, great presidents read shakespeare for ideas. they read imson, they raid the classics. the classics come from people, just people like our writers, just people like you and me. >> do you wish you could have this conversation with the in the. >> i'm hoping he's watching! >> rose: he might be. he might be. >> of course i wish it. of course i wish it. to me it's a thrill that i am in a piece that's actually watched by presidents. this-- this is a piece that both clinton and obama admire. and other-- . >> rose: do you think they admire it because they think hey, first of all it's good drama, good acting, a fascinating plot which you don't know because it takes this direction. but also they admire it because of what you have just articulated, throughout this conversation, hope and optimism. >> i hope so. but first and foremost,

they're in the opening credits. so i know they love that. but i do think-- . >> rose: so is ronald reagan. >> absolutely. but i do think, i think-- . >> rose: george bush. >> i think they enjoy the possibilities that exist. you know stephen sondheim at the end of his great piece that i got to be a part of, sunday in the park with george, the final wordses were, he puts his hands up to frame the painting of sunday afternoon on the island-- and he says so many possibilities. actually what was write was white, a blank page or canvas, his favorite. so many possibilities. and great minds, great leaders recognize that there are infinite possibilities to every situation. and why kerry and obama are being tireless with this situation right now. in both iran and both with the palestinian peace process is because they

recognize the possibilities of hope and optimism. and they know that what is can't sustain itself. >> at the same time you have to argue. we don't have time to do this, because we don't. there are whole kinds of arguments you can make here about understanding, you know, you can't negotiate with hitler. given? >> i certainly would have tried if hi been at the dinner table. you darn right i would have tried. and i believe you can negotiate with everyone. >> rose: churchill. >> history will prove that you can't at a certain point because they are madmen or there is something wrong with their brain or they are just sick. >> rose: and the other people arguing with respect to iran and the nuclear thing make this simple argument. sanctions were working, that hard reality of sanctions were working and that's why they came to the table. and it's no time t is no time to pull back on sanctions, that's the argument they great. that's netanyahu's argument. >> gooding i'm not a tough guy that is not how a operate. >> rose: is john brennan though? >> john brennan is clearly

somebodyur[(!at said to me you can't ignore that there are bad people out there and you have to be on your game all the time. and i immediately said to him, i totally agree with you. but you must not letdown the same kind of energy toward the other side of the equation which is the peace process. i think they must live hand-in-hand at all times. >> rose: in your mind how many mandies are there? >> whew! there's quite a few. and if you ask my wife and children they will probably add to the ones that i claim. but i think there are a number of them. and i am having fun, charlie. >> rose: is it the best time. >> it is the best time. if you told me that at 61, i was just 61 on saturday, november 30th. if you told me that that would be the best time in my life, i would have thought you were crazy years ago. but it is the best time in my life. and it is because of what we learned. because of the good and the negative choices that we've made during the ride. it is because of everything.

and you know, i say to my wife often, well, how come i didn't know these things when i was 30. why didn't i know them? it would have been so much easier. she says because you didn't and you weren't ready to and you know them now. >> rose: i want to come over and have dinner with your wife. >> would you love it she's the ticket in our family. >> rose: so it's the best time of your life. >> it really is. it really is. and it's partly the best time. you know there are numbers and my grandma used to says that's a number, you know, that's a number. and i do think when you're 50s that's a number. and when you're 60 that is another number. i do think sent enagain arios are the fastest growing group. i want my faculties and my health. but i, you know, the clock you're more aware of the clock. and so now if i have an idea or ten ideas today, i want to get them all going before the sunsets.

>> yeah. >> i don't-- because one of them might be earth shaking. >> not because one might be earth shaking. >> because what. >> because they mean something to me. i want to just get them out there i want to work very hard at not being superman. one of my great teachers said to me and one of my greatest curses was spending too much of my early years trying to be superman. trying to be perfect. trying to serve mandy and not the team. an that's where i think, when you talk about individual, mandy trying to be superman as opposed to serve the team, the whole cast, the whole foundation, everybody everybody in the concert, the writers, the publicist, the producers, the audience, serve the whole family, my children, my wife, our relatives, serve everyone. and nation, don't just serve your own ideology if it is your father's heritage or whatever. serve the whole nation. which means the people on the far right and left and everyone in the middle. and that's why it's a tough job. i couldn't do it.

i don't know how. i said to mark rosenblum, head of americans for peace now, who explained to me a thousand times because i have been involved with the peace process, all good cause there are endless good causes. he explained a thousand times the pea process, and i'm not an idiot but i can't tell you to. it is in the door from oslo, but i can't explain it to you. i said mark, mark, mark, when, when will this come to be reality? and the man, there is several years ago because he doesn't feel this right now. because what he feels right now is imperative is it's not sustainable and it's not morally and ethically sustainable what is going on. and we must change that as citizens of societies, not just our society, all societies through the world. but what he said years ago, when i said when will it change. and this man who has devoted his life to the peace process said to me when they have exhausted the killing. >> they. >> they. >> rose: they means everybody or they meaning the other side. >> they who kill. >> rose: .

>> which is both sides. >> rose: we started with music. >> yes. >> rose: so when you cross the river for the last time, what do you want from sondheim or from hammerstein or from ovary hebrew song you've ever known to be singing in the hearts of the people who watch watch you cross. what song what voice. >> i want the sound of harmony. >> rose: do you really? >> yes. i want to hear the music. i want it to opinion in a light filled room and i want it to be harmonious. and it's universal. and it's spiritual. it's undenibl. and it connects everyone. and that's why i think music is so powerful. it heals. i, there's too many wishes in the pot when you think of

your family, your children, peace in the middle east, climate change, nuclear. >> rose: but harmony. >> harmony, the ability to sit with your fellow man and woman and talk and listen. to accept your mistakes, say you're sorry, enough, not oversay it. but certainly admit it. and then move on sondheim wrote that song move on for sunday in the park with george and james la pine wrote those, move on, stop staying where you are going, move on, if you could know where you are going, you would have gone, just keep moving on. and you know, and look into the classics. and look into the great writers, and poets. and lyricists. they've left us with their wishes. not only for themselves but for the world at large. and there is great value to the art of the reflection of human nature. and we are fools not to

drink it. >> rose: thank you. captioning sponsored by rose communications

captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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